From edi at agharta.de Tue Oct 5 21:18:04 2004 From: edi at agharta.de (Edi Weitz) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 23:18:04 +0200 Subject: [lisp-hh] Meetings 4 und 5 Message-ID: <87acv027ar.fsf@miles.agharta.de> Moin! Nach dem sehr interessanten und erfolgreichen Amsterdam-Meeting (Hi Arthur!) w?rde ich gerne etwas ?hnliches auch in Hamburg hinkriegen. Damit Leute, die von weiter weg kommen, nicht zu viel Geld und Zeit investieren m?ssen, sollten wir damit aber noch etwas warten. Arthur meinte, und ich stimme ihm zu, da? einmal pro Quartal wohl eine gute Frequenz f?r ein "gro?es" Lisp-Meeting w?re. Damit w?rde es auf Januar/Februar hinauslaufen, ich pr?feriere aber Anfang M?rz, weil dann die Autofahrer hoffentlich etwas bessere Chancen haben und Hamburg evtl. auch besser aussieht. (Als Lokalpatriot sollte man den touristischen Aspekt nicht ganz au?er acht lassen... :) Um die Wartezeit zu ?berbr?cken vielleicht vorher noch ein "kleines" Meeting? Im November? Vorschlag: 1. ?bern?chstes Meeting in Hamburg Anfang M?rz an einem Sonntag. Vortr?ge diverser Lisp-Celebrities, u.a. wohl Christophe Rhodes, Luke Gorrie und Arthur Lemmens, vielleicht auch Mario Mommer. Ggf. am Samstagabend gemeinsames Abendessen der bereits Anwesenden irgendwo auf dem Kiez ("Abendmahl" oder sowas). Ort: Ich suche noch - aber etwas, was zentraler liegt und etwas netter ist als der Landesjugendring. 2. N?chstes Meeting am 14.11. um 14 Uhr am selben Ort (LJR) wie beim letzten Mal, falls niemand grunds?tzliche Einw?nde gegen Ort und Zeit hat (und ich den Raum f?r diesen Tag reservieren kann). Anschlie?end irgendwo essen gehen. Da es in letzter Zeit ein paar Anfragen in diese Richtung gab, w?rde ich vorschlagen, da? wir (zumindest auch) was f?r "Newbies" anbieten. Ich k?nnte z.B. bei Interesse ein bi?chen demonstrieren, wie man mit SLIME arbeitet. Dann w?re ich endlich mal gezwungen, mir das selbst genauer anzusehen... :) Andere Ideen/Vorschl?ge f?r Vortr?ge, Demos undsoweiter? Frage, W?nsche, Beschwerden? Vielleicht hat auch jemand Lust, bei der Organisation mitzuhelfen? Gr??e, Edi. PS: Da? es ein "kleines" Meeting werden soll, sollte nat?rlich niemanden von au?erhalb davon abhalten, vorbeizukommen. Sooo klein soll es dann ja auch nicht werden. From alemmens at xs4all.nl Sat Oct 9 16:35:13 2004 From: alemmens at xs4all.nl (Arthur Lemmens) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 18:35:13 +0200 Subject: [lisp-hh] Meetings 4 und 5 In-Reply-To: <87acv027ar.fsf@miles.agharta.de> References: <87acv027ar.fsf@miles.agharta.de> Message-ID: Edi Weitz wrote: > Nach dem sehr interessanten und erfolgreichen Amsterdam-Meeting (Hi > Arthur!) Hi Edi! Thanks for your share in making the Amsterdam meeting "interessant und erfolgreich". How's the .NET stuff going? Still showing message-boxes? ;-) > 1. ?bern?chstes Meeting in Hamburg Anfang M?rz an einem > Sonntag. Vortr?ge diverser Lisp-Celebrities, u.a. wohl Christophe > Rhodes, Luke Gorrie und Arthur Lemmens, vielleicht auch Mario > Mommer. Ggf. am Samstagabend gemeinsames Abendessen der bereits > Anwesenden irgendwo auf dem Kiez ("Abendmahl" oder sowas). Sounds good to me. But what's "der Kiez"? Is it the most interesting part of Hamburg? > 2. N?chstes Meeting am 14.11. um 14 Uhr am selben Ort (LJR) wie beim > letzten Mal, falls niemand grunds?tzliche Einw?nde gegen Ort und > Zeit hat (und ich den Raum f?r diesen Tag reservieren > kann). Anschlie?end irgendwo essen gehen. Sounds good too. I'll try to be there. > Ich k?nnte z.B. bei Interesse ein bi?chen demonstrieren, wie > man mit SLIME arbeitet. I just started with SLIME, so I'm definitely interested in learning more about it. > PS: Da? es ein "kleines" Meeting werden soll, sollte nat?rlich > niemanden von au?erhalb davon abhalten, vorbeizukommen. Sooo klein > soll es dann ja auch nicht werden. I'll see if I can find some more Lispniks in the Netherlands who want to come with me. Arthur From edi at agharta.de Sat Oct 9 20:00:05 2004 From: edi at agharta.de (Edi Weitz) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 22:00:05 +0200 Subject: [lisp-hh] Meetings 4 und 5 In-Reply-To: (Arthur Lemmens's message of "Sat, 09 Oct 2004 18:35:13 +0200") References: <87acv027ar.fsf@miles.agharta.de> Message-ID: Hi Arthur! On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 18:35:13 +0200, Arthur Lemmens wrote: > Hi Edi! Thanks for your share in making the Amsterdam meeting > "interessant und erfolgreich". How's the .NET stuff going? Still > showing message-boxes? ;-) Haven't touched it since - no time. I guess it's still able to show message boxes and crash afterwards... :) > Sounds good to me. But what's "der Kiez"? Is it the most interesting > part of Hamburg? Depends on what you're interested in... :) It's the area around the "Reeperbahn" in St. Pauli. Apart from being a fairly famous red light district it also has some nice clubs and restaurants. > Sounds good too. I'll try to be there. Great! > I'll see if I can find some more Lispniks in the Netherlands who > want to come with me. Yes, that would be nice. Cheers, Edi. From dirk at dirkgerrits.com Sat Oct 9 20:12:56 2004 From: dirk at dirkgerrits.com (Dirk Gerrits) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 22:12:56 +0200 Subject: [benelux-lispers] Re: [lisp-hh] Meetings 4 und 5 In-Reply-To: (Arthur Lemmens's message of "Sat, 09 Oct 2004 18:35:13 +0200") References: <87acv027ar.fsf@miles.agharta.de> Message-ID: <87k6tz8xbr.fsf@dirkgerrits.com> Arthur Lemmens writes: > Edi Weitz wrote: > >> 2. N?chstes Meeting am 14.11. um 14 Uhr am selben Ort (LJR) wie beim >> letzten Mal, falls niemand grunds?tzliche Einw?nde gegen Ort und >> Zeit hat (und ich den Raum f?r diesen Tag reservieren >> kann). Anschlie?end irgendwo essen gehen. > > Sounds good too. I'll try to be there. > ... > > I'll see if I can find some more Lispniks in the Netherlands who > want to come with me. I'd love to come. Especially since I didn't really get a chance to meet most of the participants last time. I'm not sure yet if I can make it though. I have preliminary exams the week after the meeting, and if they happen to start on Monday then I'd better not come home late from Hamburg the day before. Otherwise I should be fine. Can I come with you and Ernst again, Arthur? Kind regards, Dirk Gerrits From dirk at dirkgerrits.com Sun Oct 10 15:40:03 2004 From: dirk at dirkgerrits.com (Dirk Gerrits) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 17:40:03 +0200 Subject: [benelux-lispers] Re: [lisp-hh] Meetings 4 und 5 In-Reply-To: <87k6tz8xbr.fsf@dirkgerrits.com> (Dirk Gerrits's message of "Sat, 09 Oct 2004 22:12:56 +0200") References: <87acv027ar.fsf@miles.agharta.de> <87k6tz8xbr.fsf@dirkgerrits.com> Message-ID: <87oejatwdo.fsf@dirkgerrits.com> Dirk Gerrits writes: > I'd love to come. Especially since I didn't really get a chance to meet > most of the participants last time. I'm not sure yet if I can make it > though. Okay, I just checked. I have a preliminary exam on Monday 15 November at 9:00, so I'm afraid I can't come the 14th. :( Regards, Dirk Gerrits From evw at infometrics.nl Tue Oct 12 07:13:23 2004 From: evw at infometrics.nl (Ernst van Waning) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:13:23 +0200 Subject: [benelux-lispers] Re: [lisp-hh] Meetings 4 und 5 In-Reply-To: <87k6tz8xbr.fsf@dirkgerrits.com> Message-ID: Of course I will do my best to be there! As far as selection of a saturday evening venue is concerned: I have complete trust in Edi :-) Ernst > -----Original Message----- > From: Dirk Gerrits [mailto:dirk at dirkgerrits.com] > Sent: 09 October 2004 22:13 > To: benelux-lispers at yahoogroups.com > Cc: lisp-hh at common-lisp.net > Subject: Re: [benelux-lispers] Re: [lisp-hh] Meetings 4 und 5 > > > > Arthur Lemmens writes: > > > Edi Weitz wrote: > > > >> 2. N?chstes Meeting am 14.11. um 14 Uhr am selben Ort (LJR) wie beim > >> letzten Mal, falls niemand grunds?tzliche Einw?nde gegen Ort und > >> Zeit hat (und ich den Raum f?r diesen Tag reservieren > >> kann). Anschlie?end irgendwo essen gehen. > > > > Sounds good too. I'll try to be there. > > > ... > > > > I'll see if I can find some more Lispniks in the Netherlands who > > want to come with me. > > I'd love to come. Especially since I didn't really get a chance to meet > most of the participants last time. I'm not sure yet if I can make it > though. I have preliminary exams the week after the meeting, and if > they happen to start on Monday then I'd better not come home late from > Hamburg the day before. Otherwise I should be fine. Can I come with > you and Ernst again, Arthur? > > Kind regards, > > Dirk Gerrits > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> > Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/SyjtlB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/benelux-lispers/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > benelux-lispers-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > From edi at agharta.de Tue Oct 12 08:20:06 2004 From: edi at agharta.de (Edi Weitz) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 10:20:06 +0200 Subject: [benelux-lispers] Re: [lisp-hh] Meetings 4 und 5 In-Reply-To: (Ernst van Waning's message of "Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:13:23 +0200") References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:13:23 +0200, "Ernst van Waning" wrote: > Of course I will do my best to be there! Very good. Unfortunately, I just heard that the room we had last time isn't available on November 14. We have to choose one of the following sundays. I'll have to re-check with the people who give a talk. Sorry for that. But maybe Dirk can come in this case. (Can you forward this to him? I'm not subscribed to the BeNeLux mailing list.) > As far as selection of a saturday evening venue is concerned: I have > complete trust in Edi :-) You better have... :) Cheers, Edi. From alemmens at xs4all.nl Tue Oct 12 08:34:52 2004 From: alemmens at xs4all.nl (Arthur Lemmens) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 10:34:52 +0200 Subject: [benelux-lispers] Re: [lisp-hh] Meetings 4 und 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Edi, > Very good. Unfortunately, I just heard that the room we had last time > isn't available on November 14. We have to choose one of the following > sundays. I don't know which alternatives you're considering, but I can't come on November 21st (it's my birthday). > I'll have to re-check with the people who give a talk. Any information about that? Mario Mommer is interested in parallel Lisps and just noticed that Lothar Hotz has done something interesting in that respect (http://kogs-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~hotz/). Lothar seems to be from Hamburg, so maybe he'd like to talk about this at the meeting? > But maybe Dirk can come in this case. That would be nice. > (Can you forward this to him? I'm not subscribed to the BeNeLux mailing list.) I don't think that's necessary. AFAIK he's subscribed to this list. Arthur From edi at agharta.de Tue Oct 12 09:36:18 2004 From: edi at agharta.de (Edi Weitz) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 11:36:18 +0200 Subject: [benelux-lispers] Re: [lisp-hh] Meetings 4 und 5 In-Reply-To: (Arthur Lemmens's message of "Tue, 12 Oct 2004 10:34:52 +0200") References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 10:34:52 +0200, Arthur Lemmens wrote: > I don't know which alternatives you're considering, but I can't come > on November 21st (it's my birthday). Ooops, we should try to avoid this weekend, then. > Any information about that? Well, currently it looks like we have Pascal Costanza about AspectL (if he's available for the new date) and me about SLIME. I also talked with Mario Mommer but he hasn't replied yet. > Mario Mommer is interested in parallel Lisps and just noticed that > Lothar Hotz has done something interesting in that respect > (http://kogs-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~hotz/). Lothar seems to > be from Hamburg, so maybe he'd like to talk about this at the > meeting? Good idea. I just phoned him and he's interested. He even offered to provide a room at the university and to contact some other Lispers like Ralf Moeller of Lisp Machine Museum fame. We'll see. I'm afraid finding a date for the next meeting will be harder than I thought. I should have checked the rooms first. Sorry for that. (Actually, I had expected some more feedback from the Hamburg Lispers. But as usual, there wasn't any... :) Cheers, Edi. From alemmens at xs4all.nl Tue Oct 12 10:15:02 2004 From: alemmens at xs4all.nl (Arthur Lemmens) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:15:02 +0200 Subject: [benelux-lispers] Re: [lisp-hh] Meetings 4 und 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Edi, > Good idea. I just phoned him and he's interested. He even offered to > provide a room at the university and to contact some other Lispers > like Ralf Moeller of Lisp Machine Museum fame. Sounds good. > I'm afraid finding a date for the next meeting will be harder than I > thought. I should have checked the rooms first. Sorry for that. You could consider doing what I did in Amsterdam: just pay for a room in a hotel somewhere and split the costs among the participants. Arthur From tekai at gmx.li Tue Oct 12 10:46:14 2004 From: tekai at gmx.li (Engelke Eschner) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:46:14 +0200 Subject: [benelux-lispers] Re: [lisp-hh] Meetings 4 und 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > (Actually, I had expected some more feedback from the Hamburg > Lispers. But as usual, there wasn't any... :) > count me in on any date, any location. -- Engelke Eschner engelke at tekai.org http://www.tekai.org/ From edi at agharta.de Tue Oct 12 11:24:54 2004 From: edi at agharta.de (Edi Weitz) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:24:54 +0200 Subject: [benelux-lispers] Re: [lisp-hh] Meetings 4 und 5 In-Reply-To: (Arthur Lemmens's message of "Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:15:02 +0200") References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:15:02 +0200, Arthur Lemmens wrote: > You could consider doing what I did in Amsterdam: just pay for a > room in a hotel somewhere and split the costs among the > participants. But how did you get the bodyguards and the go-go girls? Were they included? Looks like we'll have to go to the "Reeperbahn" in November already... :) Edi. From dirk at dirkgerrits.com Tue Oct 12 18:21:12 2004 From: dirk at dirkgerrits.com (Dirk Gerrits) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:21:12 +0200 Subject: [benelux-lispers] Re: [lisp-hh] Meetings 4 und 5 In-Reply-To: (Arthur Lemmens's message of "Tue, 12 Oct 2004 10:34:52 +0200") References: Message-ID: <871xg3x0fb.fsf@dirkgerrits.com> Arthur Lemmens writes: >> Very good. Unfortunately, I just heard that the room we had last time >> isn't available on November 14. We have to choose one of the following >> sundays. > > I don't know which alternatives you're considering, but I can't > come on November 21st (it's my birthday). [...] > >> But maybe Dirk can come in this case. > > That would be nice. As far as I can tell at this point, any sunday in late October / November / early December should be fine, except 14 November. My birthday is on Tuesday 30 November, but that won't stop me from coming the 28th if there happens to be a meeting. ;) >> (Can you forward this to him? I'm not subscribed to the BeNeLux mailing list.) > > I don't think that's necessary. AFAIK he's subscribed to this list. Yes I'm subscribed to the BeNeLux, Cologne, and Hamburg Lisp mailing lists. Any other Western European Lisp mailing lists I should know about? :) Kind regards, Dirk Gerrits From dirk at dirkgerrits.com Wed Oct 13 10:07:56 2004 From: dirk at dirkgerrits.com (Dirk Gerrits) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:07:56 +0200 Subject: [lisp-hh] [ANN] Erlisp website Message-ID: <87hdozue0z.fsf@dirkgerrits.com> Hello my Lisping friends, I've already told some of you this, but I've started on a project to bring Erlang's light-weight, message passing concurrency to Common Lisp. Today I've finished completely overhauling my website, and I've created a project website for Erlisp in the process. (See: http://www.dirkgerrits.com/erlisp/) Here's a brief summary: Why is it that Common Lisp is better than "mainstream" languages in a lot of ways, but not in parallelism and distributed programming? Is it just because threads with shared memory and locking are the best we can do for parallelism, and because socket and RPC libraries are totally adequate for distributed programming? I think the answer is no. Some older Lisps and a few younger, non-Lisp languages like Erlang have intriguing approaches to concurrency that are easier to use and less "low-level" than this industry best practice. Erlisp is my attempt to bring some of these ideas to Common Lisp, and perhaps develop some new approaches in the process. Phase 1 of this project will involve bringing (most of) the features of the Erlang programming language to Common Lisp. Erlang is a small but powerful functional, parallel, and distributed programming language originally developed at Ericsson for use in the telecom industry. It's been really successful as a parallel and distributed programming language, and is pretty Lisp-like for a language with syntax, so it seems like a good starting point. Phase 2 is much bolder and involves doing for models of parallel and distributed programming what the CLOS MOP did for object systems. The design of such a metaobject protocol is a hard and evolutionary process with which I have absolutely no experience, so this is very much a long-term goal. So far, there is no code to speak of. Just Erlisp's roadmap, describing the basic plan of attack for its realization, and a list of references to relevant articles, books, etc. Questions, comments, suggestions, articles, books, prior art, and constructive criticism are always welcome. Just reply to this e-mail, in private or through the mailing list. Kind regards, Dirk Gerrits From costanza at web.de Wed Oct 13 12:57:42 2004 From: costanza at web.de (Pascal Costanza) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:57:42 +0200 Subject: [lisp-hh] Re: [ANN] Erlisp website In-Reply-To: <87hdozue0z.fsf@dirkgerrits.com> References: <87hdozue0z.fsf@dirkgerrits.com> Message-ID: <416D2646.3060904@web.de> Hi Dirk, Dirk Gerrits wrote: > Questions, comments, suggestions, articles, books, prior art, and > constructive criticism are always welcome. Just reply to this e-mail, > in private or through the mailing list. I have two links to offer (I don't know enough about Erlang to check whether they are relevant): http://www.dreamsongs.com/Qlisp.html http://www.dreamsongs.com/10ideas.html Pascal -- Pascal Costanza University of Bonn mailto:costanza at web.de Institute of Computer Science III http://www.pascalcostanza.de R?merstr. 164, D-53117 Bonn (Germany) From dirk at dirkgerrits.com Wed Oct 13 18:28:37 2004 From: dirk at dirkgerrits.com (Dirk Gerrits) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 20:28:37 +0200 Subject: [lisp-hh] Re: [ANN] Erlisp website In-Reply-To: <416D2646.3060904@web.de> (Pascal Costanza's message of "Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:57:42 +0200") References: <87hdozue0z.fsf@dirkgerrits.com> <416D2646.3060904@web.de> Message-ID: <87wtxusca2.fsf@dirkgerrits.com> Pascal Costanza writes: Hi Pascal, > Dirk Gerrits wrote: > >> Questions, comments, suggestions, articles, books, prior art, and >> constructive criticism are always welcome. Just reply to this e-mail, >> in private or through the mailing list. > > I have two links to offer (I don't know enough about Erlang to check > whether they are relevant): > > http://www.dreamsongs.com/Qlisp.html > http://www.dreamsongs.com/10ideas.html Thanks, I'll add them to the references page ASAP. By the way, you may not have realized that, but you did a 'reply to all', thereby e-mailing not only the mailing lists, but also some of my personal friends. ;) Reply to all to this message should be safe though. Kind regards, Dirk Gerrits From dirk at dirkgerrits.com Thu Oct 14 08:01:25 2004 From: dirk at dirkgerrits.com (Dirk Gerrits) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:01:25 +0200 Subject: [lisp-hh] Terminology [Was: Re: [ANN] Erlisp website] In-Reply-To: (Luke Gorrie's message of "14 Oct 2004 00:10:04 +0200") References: <87hdozue0z.fsf@dirkgerrits.com> <416D2646.3060904@web.de> <87wtxusca2.fsf@dirkgerrits.com> Message-ID: <87ekk1pw2y.fsf_-_@dirkgerrits.com> Luke Gorrie writes: Hi Luke. > Erlisp sounds cool, I'm looking forward to see what you come up with. I'm glad I sparked your interest. I'm looking forward to see what I come up with as well. ;) > For now I suggest adopting the definition that /concurrency/ is > juggling a lot of different tasks at once, whereas /parallelism/ is > optimization by using multiple processors at the same time. With these > definitions Erlang and Erlisp are about concurrency and not parallelism. Hmm, I should add a terminology page. But I could use some suggestions for it. The way I see it, there are (at least) 5 related concepts: 1. juggling a lot of different tasks at once on a single machine with a single processor 2. juggling a lot of different tasks at once on a single machine with multiple processors 3. juggling a lot of different tasks at once on a single machine (regardless of its number of processors) 4. juggling a lot of different tasks at once across multiple machines 5. juggling a lot of different tasks at once (regardless of the number of machines involved) I was using the terminology: 1. - 2. - 3. dirk:parallelism 4. dirk:distribution 5. dirk:concurrency What would would you suggest? 1. - 2. - 3. luke:concurrency 4. luke:distribution 5. luke:concurrent and luke:distributed ? I would really like to have a single word for each of 3, 4, and 5. But I do share your sentiment that the 1 vs 2 distinction is not really interesting (from a language design standpoint). If I need to mention 1 and 2 at all, I'll just write them out in full. BTW, "processor" should probably be defined more thoroughly as well. It seems to be hot these days to make CPUs with multiple cores. > This is an important distinction. Parallelism is boring: everybody's > already read old papers about parallel Lisps and nobody's actually > writing parallel Lisp programs. Concurrency is sexy: everybody's > writing concurrent programs (McCLIM, Araneida, etc etc) and Erlisp is > trying to break ground by making these programs much easier to write. I agree, in principle, but the luke:parallel Lisps of old also had a luke:concurrency aspect, and some of them look really interesting. > Don't be labelled as just another parallel Lisp! :-) Well so far Erlisp has mostly been labelled as an "Erlang in Lisp". While that isn't half bad, I'd like to go beyond that once I really get there. ;) > P.S., IMO two great background reading books are _Communicating > Sequential Processes_ by Hoare (online at www.usingcsp.com) and _The > Architecture of Concurrent Programs_ by Per Brinch Hansen (library, or > cheap at www.bookfinder.com) They have both books at my university's library, which is good as I don't like reading large amounts of a text of a computer screen. :) I've already read the first, I'll have to pick up the second some time. Thanks for the pointers. Kind regards, Dirk Gerrits From Joerg-Cyril.Hoehle at t-systems.com Thu Oct 14 09:05:46 2004 From: Joerg-Cyril.Hoehle at t-systems.com (Hoehle, Joerg-Cyril) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:05:46 +0200 Subject: [lisp-hh] Re: [ANN] Erlisp website Message-ID: <5F9130612D07074EB0A0CE7E69FD7A0301CAAA52@S4DE8PSAAGS.blf.telekom.de> Dirk, I wish you good luck. I recommend you to read Matthew Fuchs' PhD (1995) about Dreme. It's Erlang concepts taken to an implementation of Scheme. I'd appreciate a Common Lisp with real language-level concurrency (parallelism?), like in Erlang. The Dreme paper once made be believe a threading Oaklisp with a software write barrier as the basis for a generational GC would be doable on the Amiga (no time to figure it out :) -- Oaklisp also is a byte-code machine. The key was that each thread would have its own 1st generation memory pool, so allocation would be very fast, and copying to the shared heap would only occur when needed, i.e. for message passing. In my simple model, the GC would need to stop all threads (or rather wait until each reaches a safe point, e.g. doing I/O or consing). Each time I suggested adding Coroutines to CLISP, the proposal was turned down because "threads are the real thing". Gilbert Baumann once had coroutines in his copy of CLISP in 1998, but that was never integrated and I fear it's lost. IMHO, threads are not the real thing, because - they cost too much (resources for stack, context switch) - they introduce need for synchronization, where there was no need before. Erlang and Oz schow, among others, that it's possible to express some problems very elegantly using seemingly parallel constructs, but without the need for actual threads. >easier to use and less "low-level" than this industry best practice. IMHO, an approach similar to Erlang's, or also using constrained variables like in the Oz language could be a key to fun/beautiful/readable/verifyable concurrency, as opposed to the thread-stuck, thread-savy and thread-heavy industrial practice. I call the "Smalltalk lie" because it talks about message passing whereas all it's doing is synchronous (blocking) method calls, with all the known problems. Erlang does real message passing in my words, because the senders and receivers are autonomous. Although I have followed the evolution of Erlang for several years, I sadly haven't used it in a project. I tend to stick to single-threaded applications using CLISP, Kawa (Scheme in a JVM), or use Python's coroutines here and there, longing for a better world. [BTW, isn't there a better place for this than 3 mailing lists?] Regards, J?rg H?hle. From costanza at web.de Thu Oct 14 09:43:57 2004 From: costanza at web.de (Pascal Costanza) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:43:57 +0200 Subject: [lisp-hh] Too many mailing lists Message-ID: <416E4A5D.7000301@web.de> Hi, We definitely have too many mailing lists. I have got three copies of each posting in recent discussions, and that doesn't really help to keep track of what's happening. We already had a brief discussion, and I think a consensus, that a European Lisp mailing list would be great. In order to help that mailing list become a reality, I can offer to write an introductory text for the respective website. (I would prefer a Wiki-style website so that later on people can change the text or, for example, translate it into French and other European languages.) If other people can take over the responsibility to set up the mailing list and later on promote it on the various channels, we should relatively quickly be done with this. Any volunteers? Pascal -- Pascal Costanza University of Bonn mailto:costanza at web.de Institute of Computer Science III http://www.pascalcostanza.de R?merstr. 164, D-53117 Bonn (Germany) From alemmens at xs4all.nl Thu Oct 14 09:55:49 2004 From: alemmens at xs4all.nl (Arthur Lemmens) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:55:49 +0200 Subject: [lisp-hh] Re: [benelux-lispers] Too many mailing lists In-Reply-To: References: <416E4A5D.7000301@web.de> Message-ID: Hi Mario, > I can set it up on cl.net tonight, for instance. That would be great. > How should it be called? lisp-eu at common-lisp.net would be my > sugestion. I prefer "eurolisp at common-lisp.net" (I think Pascal suggested this name a few months ago). Arthur From alemmens at xs4all.nl Thu Oct 14 10:00:06 2004 From: alemmens at xs4all.nl (Arthur Lemmens) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:00:06 +0200 Subject: [lisp-hh] Re: [cl-lc] Too many mailing lists In-Reply-To: <416E4A5D.7000301@web.de> References: <416E4A5D.7000301@web.de> Message-ID: Pascal wrote: > We definitely have too many mailing lists. I totally agree. > Any volunteers? I don't really have time for this at the moment, so I can only volunteer to give moral support ;-) I'll also gladly buy a beer or two for the people who are willing to take care of this. Just remind me next time we meet in Koeln, Hamburg or Amsterdam. Arthur From costanza at web.de Thu Oct 14 10:07:49 2004 From: costanza at web.de (Pascal Costanza) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:07:49 +0200 Subject: [lisp-hh] Re: [cl-lc] Re: [benelux-lispers] Too many mailing lists In-Reply-To: References: <416E4A5D.7000301@web.de> Message-ID: <416E4FF5.8080704@web.de> Arthur Lemmens wrote: > Hi Mario, > > >>I can set it up on cl.net tonight, for instance. > > That would be great. > >>How should it be called? lisp-eu at common-lisp.net would be my >>sugestion. > > I prefer "eurolisp at common-lisp.net" (I think Pascal suggested this > name a few months ago). I don't remember anymore (but this doesn't mean anything ;). We just shouldn't call it eulisp because this would create similar confusions a the name CLISP. (EuLisp was a European-based Lisp dialect created in the 80's.) Pascal -- Pascal Costanza University of Bonn mailto:costanza at web.de Institute of Computer Science III http://www.pascalcostanza.de R?merstr. 164, D-53117 Bonn (Germany) From dirk at dirkgerrits.com Thu Oct 14 10:11:45 2004 From: dirk at dirkgerrits.com (Dirk Gerrits) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:11:45 +0200 Subject: [lisp-hh] Re: [benelux-lispers] Too many mailing lists In-Reply-To: (Arthur Lemmens's message of "Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:55:49 +0200") References: <416E4A5D.7000301@web.de> Message-ID: <87r7o1obha.fsf@dirkgerrits.com> Arthur Lemmens writes: > I prefer "eurolisp at common-lisp.net" (I think Pascal suggested this > name a few months ago). I am very much in favor of a European Lisp mailing list, and eurolisp at common-lisp.net seems a fine name. I suggest the Erlisp discussion be resumed there once it's up. There is one little problem though. I haven't been able to reach common-lisp.net since the start of October. (My ISP is looking into the problem.) While that shouldn't prevent me from receiving or sending eurolisp e-mails in principle, I couldn't go to common-lisp.net to subscribe myself. Mario, could you perhaps subscribe me? Or set up a subscription page somewhere else? Kind regards, Dirk Gerrits From dirk at dirkgerrits.com Thu Oct 14 11:08:34 2004 From: dirk at dirkgerrits.com (Dirk Gerrits) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:08:34 +0200 Subject: [lisp-hh] Re: [ANN] Erlisp website In-Reply-To: <5F9130612D07074EB0A0CE7E69FD7A0301CAAA52@S4DE8PSAAGS.blf.telekom.de> (Joerg-Cyril Hoehle's message of "Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:05:46 +0200") References: <5F9130612D07074EB0A0CE7E69FD7A0301CAAA52@S4DE8PSAAGS.blf.telekom.de> Message-ID: <87is9do8ul.fsf@dirkgerrits.com> "Hoehle, Joerg-Cyril" writes: > I wish you good luck. Thanks J?rg. > I recommend you to read Matthew Fuchs' PhD (1995) about Dreme. > It's Erlang concepts taken to an implementation of Scheme. This one, yes? http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/fuchs96dreme.html Thanks for the reference. It looks very interesting. > I'd appreciate a Common Lisp with real language-level concurrency > (parallelism?), like in Erlang. Working on it. ;) > The Dreme paper once made be believe a threading Oaklisp with a > software write barrier as the basis for a generational GC would be > doable on the Amiga (no time to figure it out :) -- Oaklisp also is a > byte-code machine. The key was that each thread would have its own 1st > generation memory pool, so allocation would be very fast, and copying > to the shared heap would only occur when needed, i.e. for message > passing. In my simple model, the GC would need to stop all threads (or > rather wait until each reaches a safe point, e.g. doing I/O or > consing). Sounds interesting. I believe Erlang implementations have moved to a single heap, but Erlang has immutable data. In any case, I don't have any control over these matters until I start hacking on a Lisp's internals, which I'd like to postpone as much as possible, maybe indefinately. > Each time I suggested adding Coroutines to CLISP, the proposal was > turned down because "threads are the real thing". Sorry to hear that. > Erlang and Oz schow, among others, that it's possible to express some > problems very elegantly using seemingly parallel constructs, but > without the need for actual threads. Yes, I'm beginning to see that. I've never had a really anti-coroutine view in the first place, but I'm now starting to see that although you need preemption sometimes, you very often don't. > IMHO, an approach similar to Erlang's, or also using constrained > variables like in the Oz language could be a key to > fun/beautiful/readable/verifyable concurrency, as opposed to the > thread-stuck, thread-savy and thread-heavy industrial practice. I've only just started reading the Oz book (Concepts, Techniques, and Models of Computer Programming), and I don't know what constrained variables are. Does it have to do with constraint solving? I'm definately going to look at concurrency aproaches like Oz's, but I'm going to focus on Erlang's model first. See phase 1 / phase 2 of my Erlisp roadmap (http://www.dirkgerrits.com/erlisp/roadmap.html). One of the reasons I chose Erlang, is because I believe their model is indeed fun, beautiful, and readable, it has already proven its worth, and Erlang is not extremely far from being a Lisp. > I call the "Smalltalk lie" because it talks about message passing > whereas all it's doing is synchronous (blocking) method calls, with > all the known problems. Erlang does real message passing in my words, > because the senders and receivers are autonomous. So true. My main problem with Smalltalk (and most "OOP" languages) is that it doesn't have generic functions though. They might just be the best thing since sliced bread. :) > ... use Python's coroutines here and there, longing for a better > world. Stackless Python's coroutines, right? I actually came to Lisp through the C++ -> Python -> Scheme -> Common Lisp route, and although I looked at continuations in Stackless Python, I never understood them until I knew Scheme, at which point I didn't want to do much with Python anymore. ;) > [BTW, isn't there a better place for this than 3 mailing lists?] Hopefully, we'll be able to do it all on a single European mailing list very soon. Alternatively, we could forego mailing lists and move to my thread on comp.lang.lisp. Kind regards, Dirk Gerrits From dirk at dirkgerrits.com Thu Oct 14 13:03:38 2004 From: dirk at dirkgerrits.com (Dirk Gerrits) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:03:38 +0200 Subject: [lisp-hh] Re: [benelux-lispers] Too many mailing lists In-Reply-To: (Mario Mommer's message of "Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:44:17 +0200") References: <416E4A5D.7000301@web.de> <87r7o1obha.fsf@dirkgerrits.com> Message-ID: <87wtxtmoyd.fsf@dirkgerrits.com> Mario Mommer writes: > Dirk Gerrits writes: >> Mario, could you perhaps subscribe me? Or set up a subscription page >> somewhere else? > > subscribing you is easier. Will do so when the list opens. Thanks, although I just might be able to do it myself. The situation has improved to the point that the packet loss has dropped from 100% to 45%. Kind regards, Dirk Gerrits From alemmens at xs4all.nl Thu Oct 14 16:16:18 2004 From: alemmens at xs4all.nl (Arthur Lemmens) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 18:16:18 +0200 Subject: [lisp-hh] Re: [benelux-lispers] Free position: eurolisp list master In-Reply-To: References: <416E4A5D.7000301@web.de> Message-ID: Hi Mario, > Any volunteers? Maybe you could give us some info about what this would mean in practice? Thanks. Arthur From tayss_temp2 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 15 03:03:17 2004 From: tayss_temp2 at yahoo.com (Tayssir John Gabbour) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 20:03:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [lisp-hh] Re: [cl-lc] Re: [benelux-lispers] Free position: eurolisp list master In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041015030317.11082.qmail@web51901.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Mario, I would do this assuming there are other volunteers to divide the responsibility on. Because some days I won't be interested or too busy. I think things like passwords should be kept to a minimum. Presumably the initial configuration will be trivial, so feel free to give me the password and I'll see how trivial it is. MfG, Tayssir --- Mario Mommer wrote: > Arthur Lemmens writes: > > Maybe you could give us some info about what this would > > mean in practice? Thanks. > > Having the list password somewhere, taking care of subscription > problems, kicking out people who are not nice, deciding wether they > should get a monthly reminder of their passwords, deciding if > subscription is open to anyone, etc. > > Pretty much the same as running a yahoo group. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From edi at agharta.de Fri Oct 15 06:42:33 2004 From: edi at agharta.de (Edi Weitz) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:42:33 +0200 Subject: [lisp-hh] Re: [cl-lc] Re: [benelux-lispers] Free position: eurolisp list master In-Reply-To: (Mario Mommer's message of "Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:34:04 +0200") References: <20041015030317.11082.qmail@web51901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:34:04 +0200, Mario Mommer wrote: > There are a few decissions that we have to take: wether to allow > postings from non-subscribers (the default - so it is now. My vote > is subscribers only) This is also my vote because of spam. > and wether new subscribers need approval from someone or not (right > now, anyone can subscribe) as was on the yahoo groups lists. I don't think that's necessary. Cheers, Edi. From alemmens at xs4all.nl Fri Oct 15 07:22:49 2004 From: alemmens at xs4all.nl (Arthur Lemmens) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:22:49 +0200 Subject: [lisp-hh] Re: [cl-lc] Re: [benelux-lispers] Free position: eurolisp list master In-Reply-To: References: <20041015030317.11082.qmail@web51901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tayssir John Gabbour writes: > I would do this assuming there are other volunteers to divide the > responsibility on. OK, I'm willing to share this with you. Maybe we can just switch duties every month or so. If you do it now until the 1st of November, I'll do it in November. Does that sound reasonable? Arthur From alemmens at xs4all.nl Fri Oct 15 07:27:54 2004 From: alemmens at xs4all.nl (Arthur Lemmens) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:27:54 +0200 Subject: [lisp-hh] Re: [cl-lc] Re: [benelux-lispers] Free position: eurolisp list master In-Reply-To: References: <20041015030317.11082.qmail@web51901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Edi wrote: >> There are a few decissions that we have to take: wether to allow >> postings from non-subscribers (the default - so it is now. My vote >> is subscribers only) > > This is also my vote because of spam. I agree. >> and wether new subscribers need approval from someone or not (right >> now, anyone can subscribe) as was on the yahoo groups lists. > > I don't think that's necessary. I agree. (Sorry for such a boring message ;-) Arthur From edi at agharta.de Thu Oct 21 12:33:14 2004 From: edi at agharta.de (Edi Weitz) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:33:14 +0200 Subject: [lisp-hh] Meeting November Message-ID: Moin! So, nach einigem Hin und Her ist nun zumindest sicher, da? wir am 28.11. den Raum wieder bekommen k?nnen, den wir beim letzten Mal schon hatten. Den habe ich jetzt gebucht. N?chstes Meeting also am Sonntag, 28.11.04 - 14 Uhr Landesjugendring Hamburg G?ntherstr. 34 Wir haben diesmal leider NICHT den Beamer des LJR benutzen. Es w?re daher nett, wenn jemand einen besorgen k?nnte. Freiwillige bitte vor... :) Momentan habe ich die folgenden Leute als _potentiell_ Vortragende auf meiner Liste: - Pascal Costanza: AspectL - Mario Mommer: (incf ffi) - ein universelles FFI-Framework - Manuel Odendahl: bknr - Lothar Hotz: NetCLOS - Edi Weitz: SLIME-Demo Falls jemand auf dieser Liste jetzt schon wei?, da? er am 28.11. nicht kann, oder falls ich zu voreilig war und er gar nichts vortragen m?chte, m?ge er mir das bitte kurz mitteilen. Danke. Gr??e und bis dann, Edi. From alemmens at xs4all.nl Thu Oct 21 12:45:46 2004 From: alemmens at xs4all.nl (Arthur Lemmens) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:45:46 +0200 Subject: [lisp-hh] Meeting November In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Edi, > N?chstes Meeting also am Sonntag, 28.11.04 - 14 Uhr Great. > Wir haben diesmal leider NICHT den Beamer des LJR benutzen. Es w?re > daher nett, wenn jemand einen besorgen k?nnte. Freiwillige bitte > vor... :) I can probably take care of a beamer. If this doesn't work out, I'll let you know. Arthur P.S. Are you going to announce the meeting on the eurolisp mailing list? That's one of the reasons why it was created. From edi at agharta.de Thu Oct 21 13:01:59 2004 From: edi at agharta.de (Edi Weitz) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 15:01:59 +0200 Subject: [lisp-hh] Meeting November In-Reply-To: (Arthur Lemmens's message of "Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:45:46 +0200") References: Message-ID: Hi Arthur! On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 14:45:46 +0200, Arthur Lemmens wrote: > I can probably take care of a beamer. If this doesn't work out, > I'll let you know. That's very nice of you but Lothar Hotz just emailed me privately and said he'll bring a beamer, so you don't have to bring one all the way from Amsterdam... :) Well, OK, if it's your beamer and it's not a problem to put it into your luggage compartment, then maybe as a backup... > P.S. Are you going to announce the meeting on the eurolisp mailing > list? That's one of the reasons why it was created. Yes, sure. I just wanted to give the listed speakers a chance to decline before I make my announcement. I have to admit that I put some of them there without double-checking... :) Cheers, Edi.