[mcclim-devel] Feasibility Question

[k2msmith at gmail.com]

Thanks for the interesting thread. I was considering using clim for an  
experimental openGL application I'm writing, but I didn't get too far with  
it (on Darwin platform). So, I'm using OpenGL and GLU only for now. See  
link below for more details. Since I'm at a point where I need some  
high-level UI gadgets like pop-menus and things, it would be nice to fit  
what I have into a lisp framework, since the toplevel of what I have is  
written in lisp (image proceessing stuff is in C++).

http://kevinmichaelsmith.posterous.com/

I'm interesting in learning more about the benefits of clim and if that  
could work with an openGL canvas using mac backend for UI look and feel.





On Nov 19, 2010 8:21pm, Craig Lanning <CraigL at sc.rr.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 2010-11-20 at 01:10 +0000, James Ashley wrote:

> > Hi, all.

> >

> > I've been programming for close to 30 years now, and I've been trying

> > to find a good excuse to really learn common lisp (as opposed to just

> > dabbling) for the past 3 or so.



> I've been programming in Lisp (first Zetalisp on a lisp machine, then

> Common Lisp on Unix, Windows, and Linux) professionally for 25 years and

> I find it to be the best language for just about anything.



> > I think I've finally come across a project that feels like the right

> > "fit." The basic idea is a collaborative 3-d client-side application

> > server with a built-in IDE that persists the state off all its

> > applications between all its program runs.



> You need to be aware that CLIM doesn't have any 3D concepts in it so you

> will need to add those abstractions. The good thing is that CLIM is

> layered so if there are no high level facilities that do what you need,

> you can build them up from the lower level facilities.



> > This is total vaporware at the moment...I'm just trying to do some

> > basic research and pick the right tools. I've been involved in way too

> > many where we started out in one environment, got a proof of concept,

> > then realized there were some fundamental limitations that kept us

> > from moving forward, so we essentially had to start over from scratch

> > (or wound up layering ever-more-unmaintainable pieces on top of an

> > unsustainable architecture).

> >

> > Right now, I'm thinking off "applications" being developed on at least

> > 4 different levels. One would be raw common lisp, that interacts

> > directly with the "interpreter." Another would really be creating

> > custom frame managers (I think...I'm just scratching CLIM's surface)

> > to provide eye candy effects (since I'm planning on targeting the

> > masses, I've learned that it's pretty much all about the eye candy).

> > Yet another would be something like the HTML/CSS/Javascript paradigm

> > to create 2-d "applications." And the last would be the actual 3-d

> > world where the users interact.

> >

> > A combination of Open Cobalt and World Forge seemed like the "proper"

> > mix at first. But, the more I dug into smalltalk, the less impressed I

> > was. I kept thinking "If only I could write a macro to do all this..."

> >

> > The more I dug into it, the more I realized just how big and ambitious

> > this project is.



> One thing I've found is that I can build applications much faster in

> Common Lisp and they are much more robust. You may find that as you

> become more proficient in CL that your project doesn't take as long as

> you thought.



> > If I'm going to be dedicating 10 years (or more) to

> > something, and forcing my users to download some obscure runtime

> > anyway...why not go with a language that left my jaw on the floor and

> > my head spinning? I realize common lisp isn't perfect, but what is?

> > (Clojure's tempting. I downloaded it, spent about 20 minutes to get a

> > REPL, and finally gave up. It may be mature and "ready for the big

> > leagues" before this project is, but...common lisp's there now.

> > Racket's similarly tempting, but I just don't seem to fit with the

> > Scheme community).



> I currently use SBCL as my free CL of choice and LispWorks as my

> commercial CL of choice.



> > The ideas behind McClim seem to feel like it's the right "fit" for the

> > GUI part of the project. Not all the eye-candy pieces, of course.

> > Just...conceptually. I've been digging my way through the old mailing

> > list archives (the check-in comments are a lot more educational than I

> > realized at first. I'm glad they got archived that way), and I see

> > that there's been speculation about an OpenGL backend for ages now

> > (and at least an experimental stab at writing one).

> >

> > Conventional wisdom seems to dictate using something like one of the

> > GTK bindings for the UI. But it seems to me that, if I started there,

> > I'd just wind up re-implementing tons of CLIM to get to an abstraction

> > level where I could forget about that and get down to real work. It

> > seems to me that my time would be better spent helping get the GTKairo

> > working solidly.



> It's interesting that you should mention "re-implementing tons of CLIM".

> I have watched (mostly) and participated (a little) in the development

> of XEmacs for many years. As they discussed the various target user

> intefaces (Win32, GTK, etc.), I noticed that they were implementing

> parts of CLIM in C.



> Actually, one of the nice things about using CL and CLIM is that you get

> to define your UI separately from the implementation, thus, allowing you

> to more easily port your application to more systems. CLIM can have

> multiple backends: GTK, OpenGL, Win32, XLib, etc.



> > Either way, I'll wind up duplicating the work to switch to some crazy

> > gadget set built entirely on some 3-d engine or other.



> > I see one of the fundamental programs being a traditional "form

> > builder" kind of drag-and-drop thing along the lines of VB. Probably

> > with some kind of tree view (or maybe boxes) to hide the fact that the

> > code's actually being written in lisp.

> >

> > Am I barking up the wrong tree? Like I said...I've been going through

> > the old mailing list archives. I've normally have wrapped that up and

> > at least gotten more than a passing acquaintance with actually writing

> > McCLIM code (at this point, I'm just digesting that ancient CLIM

> > "walk-through" referenced first on the home page) before de-lurking.

> > But I ran across someone else today who seems to be thinking on at

> > least vaguely parallel lines to mine, and I figured this was the best

> > place to check before I wasted his time with my ideas.



> I say go for it. I haven't found a project yet that I wouldn't rather

> do in Lisp.



> Craig









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